Old 2013 forum post: god allows ignorance and sin that leads to hell because of free Will is bullshit
Deliberately touching a candle and being burned for a second might be useful warning; getting a third degree burn because lightning caused a burnkng tree to randomly fall on your house, so now you’ll be scarred and blind for the rest of your life = not so useful. Or as an alternative, why must a welder who didn’t wear protective gear or who bought a cheap mask still be blinded? What purpose could that pain serve?
>suffering is caused by humans
How about random genetic diseases? How about various cancers? How about chemotherapy? Comas? In these cases you’re suffering and in pain through no fault of your own?
How about plagues? Ebola? Intestine parasites because your river was contaminated? Drinking water in remote valleys has also been contaminated by airborne pathogens.
Couldn’t we live without all of these things? Couldn’t dying men die quickly without enormous pain, sometimes stretching into months or years?
This brings up a point:
Did God choose to make this imperfect world out of a range of the worlds, as the best possible world?
God could have created a better world. Why didn’t he? Just as importantly, why doesn’t he now? Or if he is doing so silently because “God Works in Mysterious ways”, why doesn’t he work faster since he is all-powerful? We have only been suffering diseases for 2,000 years, surely he could forgive the human insolence that arises from impatience? Why doesn’t he even feel obligated to give us a simple explanation for why he we need to suffer so much? It’s easy for a young man to sit in his arm-chair in the first world and say oh yes, enormous and lifelong pain is always justified. It is less so if you’re a kid growing up in the third world with an incurable disease, or a suffering braindead old man on a bed who won’t die because his his family won’t let him go.
I meant the tree would have stronger roots if it was watered more. As in was given enough water when it was fed.
You replied to the story of Job with a parable. I will rehash my words because many other people don’t seem to read the passages where God has done evil. The character Job suffered a lot in that parable and God refused to explain his actions. (Which is a good idea because Job would have been mad if he had explained.
I can imagine how the speech would sound. God would say, “I tortured you and killed your favorite daughters just so I could win a bet with my arch-enemy. Now there were no stakes on this bet, and there was no reward for either of us. (Satan didn’t agree to end our war or repent if I won). Yeah, the other day we ran into each other by chance and agreed to put aside fighting for a while so we could have a few drinks, gossip and debate some stuff. Well heaven is boring, and Satan wanted to torture someone so I said ok p, just to see what he did. I knew it would be a fun change from watching angels eternally praise me or planets rotating. But don’t get the wrong idea – I’m not responsible for hurting you! I only told Satan to do it, and I didn’t actually touch you! (Meanwhile Satan can say I only did it because God allowed it.)
But it’s all okay now because I’m giving you new daughters to replace the ones I killed who you might still have affection for! I guess I feel a little guilty about that, but hey look at how much I’m giving you now! Do as I say from now on and I won’t punish you, except when I get bored and have a drink with Satan. I’m leaving now. Oh, and before I go, I just wanted you to tell everyone to remember to fear me! You cannot dare oppose me or I might torture someone again!”
Instead of taking 2 minutes to explain why that had to happen, all Job was told was twenty minutes of “I am God. I am strong and I do as I like. Your puny morals don’t apply to me. Let me tell you about how strong I am…nothing can stop me! Let no one judge me!”
The whole story reminds me of when an abusive father randomly throws a tantrum and beats his kid. Does society agree we are supposed to forgive the father? To say he did it for a reason the child cannot understand? No, we agree should have known better, and he should have restrained his power. The kid also knows he is innocent; he does not need more years or experience to feel it. Abusing the blameless is simply cruelty, and that is what God did in this chapter.
Then why didn’t God step in and correct those fallible men who were transcribing the bible? You know, make sure they wrote down the words in a non-ambiguous way, so the Catholic church wouldn’t have needed to outlaw various sexual positions, only to decide later the bible did not mind having a girl riding on top of a man (for example.)
“. I think alot of us (atheists) feel like we’re running around screaming at religious people that 1+1=2. Meanwhile, religious people keep shouting back at us that 1+1=3 and who are we to dare tell them different. We are being intolerant of their fundamental right to believe that 1+1=3. ”
1) Suppose I wrote a story and created a god with my own imagination. Suppose that my god were more merciful than the Hebrew god, and did not kill or torture a single person, and only did good things. Suppose my God was wise, noble, and the embodiment of pure and unselfish love.
2) Suppose there was no more evidence for my god rather than the god of christianity.
3) Would I be better off believing in my own god, or the god, crueler one that other people told me existed?
Born atheists do not generally care and mine their own business. It is those who were freed from the fetters of dogma who become zealots. That is the second time you have applied a generalization to a whole.